Navigating Nutritional Science with Brenda Davis

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welcome to the podcast I’m very excited and honored to welcome Brenda Davis who many of you know who’s plant powered register dieticians written many books done some amazing research and just the Practical knowledge is going to be really fun but today we’re going to focus on some really a very important topics but first let me welcome you thank you for joining us today Brenda oh thank you so much for having me I’m really excited to be here ah well this will be fantastic so I’d like to lay the stage for those who are unaware of your history can you speak to a little bit about your interest in becoming a regular dietician and then how you really focus in on a whole f plant-based diet or plant-based diets in particular

yeah well it it you know it started probably about you know I I would say almost 50 years ago so yeah when I was a teenager uh I was really interested in nutrition and I started uh just reading books and and some of the books that I acquired somehow were on vegetarian diets and and for some reason
I was always intrigued by this way of living because I I I thought it would be cool to be able to eat in a way uh that was more compassionate uh towards animals and you know as we as we grow up I think we get desensitized to to those kinds of things and and so it was always there and then in University this is kind of funny I can still remember the one day we were going to learn about vegetarian diets and and I was really excited I thought you know this is so exciting I’m going to learn about uh vegetarian nutrition and we learned two things that day and this is probably 1978 or something like that 1979 somewhere around there and um we learned two things we learned that that vegetarian diets are risky especially for children and pregnant and lactating women and vegan diets are downright dangerous for everyone and that was it that end of story it felt like a slap in the wrist that I shouldn’t even be thinking about these bad diets and they were in our textbook they were part of The Fad diet section and uh and that was it and and so I you know I but for some reason

I just kept being pulled in that direction I was so interested in human health I was interested in the environment I was interested in animals and so it kept it was like a magnet that kept pulling me um in that direction and then uh probably 1988 89 I had an interaction with uh one of our best friends who happened to be on his way deer hunting and this is what changed the course of my life uh it it really um yeah this is where I decided to jump off uh you know into the water uh without turning back and I was a public health nutritionist

Northern Ontario never I met one vegetarian in my entire life and so this was a very new world for me and here I am the public health uh nutritionist for the community and you know teaching Canada’s food guide and the four food groups the top two of which were you know meat and dairy products of course and um and this friend I decided to make him try to I try to make him feel guilty about going and killing another deer and it was what he said what he responded to me that really changed um changed my life he said you know just because you don’t have the guts to pull the trigger does not mean you are not responsible for the trigger being pulled every time you buy your piece of meat camouflaged in Cellophane in the grocery store he said at least the animals I eat a ped a life he said I don’t think you can say the same for the ones that are sitting on your plate wow and so yeah so and he still is a very very close friend uh but we ended up you know I ended up just starting to to feel like I needed to take take real responsibility for what I was eating and the more I researched the more

I became convinced and coincidentally was 1990 that the World Health Organization put out diet nutrition and the prevention of chronic disease and implicated animal products and processed foods as the two categories of foods most responsible for killing people and and encouraged governments to you know not be sway not let their nutritional nutrition policy be dictated by industry and that was a very powerful document for me and uh I just decided uh you know I to to to become completely plant-based and that was 1989 I would say and uh yeah and I said to my my husband we had two children at the time four and one we still do of course four and one um at the time and and so they were still little enough to you know to to be easy enough to to to change too and but I asked my husband if he’d be willing to you know go on this journey with me and he looked at me and he said I thought you’d never ask I would love I would love to he said I just have always wanted to leave a softer print on the planet and I can’t think of a better way of doing that so I’m in I was so lucky I know I know how how fortunate I was because a lot of uh a lot of Partners do not respond in that way that was my similar experience my husband’s like are you still cooking he’s like okay oh that’s awesome little you went overnight um yeah that’s fantastic so how did you begin I mean what was available as far as resources education did you start like where did you learn there really wasn’t much so there was diet for new America by John Robbins there were Michael Copper’s two books um vegan pregnancy and and vegan nutrition pure and simple and those were two little you know fairly small books but they were they were beautifully done uh there really wasn’t much else and that’s why uh very soon after I started

I got together with a couple of other vegetarian dietitians and we decided that we really needed a a guide book for people that wanted to do this and so we wrote becoming vegetarian and and it was a you know National bestseller within a few months and picked up by several other countries and translated and it was really the first I think the first book by dietitians on how to do a vegan diet uh safely we called it becoming vegetarian but it was actually we had a chapter called with without meat and another chapter called without dairy and the dairy industry thought this would be a a very Dairy friendly book and uh they were not impressed when they picked it up they actually wrote a 45 page rebuttal to our book made it free of charge to every health professional in the country and took out a full page ad in our professional journal to try to discredit our work so they were scared um and yeah so they they they spent a lot of money trying to to to put us under wow so you’re like the o one of the OG’s really showing I mean was that a shock to see it was public display of aggression towards you for writing a dietary book yeah it was and you know to see this ad in our professional Journal trying to you know discredit what we were doing it was so I thought it was so embarrassing and and I always wanted to be respected by my colleagues but but what ended up happening is my colleagues read the rebuttal they read our book and they sided with us um saying that you know what the dairy industry was saying against us was beyond ridiculous they took things out of context they just said you know really goofy things like if people actually did what the dietitians in this book say we should do that would mean we would be eating more

polyunsaturated fats unless ruminant fat and cancer would just go through the roof that’s what they said okay that’s so it was laughable it was laughable wow well if anything maybe that boosted for sure wow I I can’t even imagine it just makes it’s just exhausting to me to think about what just let be I mean if that’s way we’re supposed to be eating as a hopeful plant-based diet just anyway I setting politics aside so how did you approach this with individuals I mean did you you were in the public health sector at that point were you were you still there when you wrote this book or how did you start your new career so so I was in Northern Ontario and within a year of becoming completely plant-based we moved to Vancouver area where we met other real live vegetarians and for the first time okay and and even a vegetarian dietician two vegetarian dieticians actually and and so it was a very different world at West sort of like California versus Texas I guess and so yeah so it was it was much more welcoming and and that’s where we we wrote the book and you know when we conceived of it we sent a one page sort of outline to two public and they fought over us they both wanted yeah it was not hard to get a book contract wow that’s fantastic the timing was good yes well obviously I don’t believe in coincidence

I think it’s Serendipity is like things happen for a reason at the time and the people absolutely you just have to be open to the opportunity and and take it and take action so that’s fantastic so as you moved into the Vancouver area so what was your next step so I know you’ve done a lot of different things can you highlight some of the the bigger things that you’ve researched or books and then we’ll hone in on I think the last book I think it’s an important thing that we need to speak about yeah and so so once I got to Vancouver I I started uh teaching at a college and I I did um you know working at a liid clinic and just little little jobs my my kids were still very young I had my son still at home and so I I went into Private Practice if you will and doing you know contract work um but uh I I went on to write uh becoming vegan and you know a couple of of raw food books and and then a diabetes book in 2003 called defeating diabetes and that book is what brought me to the Marshal islands and I I was involved in a a clinical trial there where I you know sort of designed the the program and implemented the program in in the Marshall Islands uh using a you know we had a control group and an intervention group where we used a whole food plant-based diet and exercise and and other uh pillars of Lifestyle medicine if you will and uh and we had five overlapping cohorts and it was it was really a wonderful uh very very challenging experience but wonderful experience so just to give you an example we were given the TB and leprosy

Clinic uh to transform into a diabetes Wellness Center and and the medical uh stainless steel cabinets probably had two inches of rat droppings in them everywhere um the bathrooms I don’t think had been cleaned for two years there there wasn’t even toilet seats on them uh it was really overrun with cockroaches and rats and and so it was a tough it was a tough job and I was there with you know I think we had eight or nine men and I had to do all the cooking for everybody on a two burer cook top stove while I was designing the program creating um you know the the all of the PowerPoint presentations and the recipes and training staff and all of that it was it was really a lot of work wow how long did these studies run well we were I was there the first time for eight months and then I came I went back and forth probably eight or 10 more times oh my goodness so what was the outcome and where does that stand now was it well actually our results paper is just about to be published um and and this is a long leg between when it actually happened and when it was published but

we we published the um a paper in 2019 sort of out outlining the the program and all of you know the details of the program and and this year the the results will be will be published it was tough because uh we didn’t have um you know the the lab at the hospital had difficulty getting our blood samples to Hawaii on you know in in reasonable time and so we lost a lot of our blood work and so it was it it U presented a lot of challenges but finally we decided you know I I felt like it doesn’t matter if our results were compromised it doesn’t matter uh we need to share what we learned in doing this so that other people could could uh benefit from that so that’s that’s where we’re at so it should should be out soon wow which a journal uh well we submitted it to Diabetes Care so let’s see what happens yeah fantastic oh wow okay yeah we don’t people don’t think about the research and the actual requirements to actually run particular studies we just read this summary over you know five six seven pages and we’re like oh okay that’s interesting meanwhile you know there’s months and years and grants and irbs and like that’s right oh even just the editing process submitting oi oi yes um appreciate that so okay so now we’ve you written becoming vegetarian becoming vegan you have the diabetes books but the most well and the nourish was the plantbase book for families can we highlight what’s in there because I definitely know people will be so so after that first diabetes book I I did another two diabetes books a sort of a guide book and a cookbook okay and then uh came nourish and nourish I did with Dr RMA Shaw from San Francisco she’s a patrician uh and uh it really is a book for families and it’s it’s all about how to raise healthy plant-based children and uh and it’s I think it’s a beautiful book uh and and actually I’ll just show you what it looks like it’s that’s nourish and and uh anyway we uh we we uh um uh worked really well together and and I think it’s been it’s been a really valuable addition to the plant-based world because we didn’t have anything like that before uh and then I I co-authored uh plant powered protein with my um usual writing partner banto Molina who was also the senior author for the Academy of nutrition and dietetics position statement on plant Le or vegetarian and my son Corey he did the environmental section and so that was really a wonderful project and the Santo and I have a third book or another book coming out soon I guess it will be more like our ninth book together or something like that and it’s going to be uh we’re just starting it but it’s going to be uh for plant-based seniors or people that are wanting to seniors that are wanting to move in the flat based direction or older adults I’m not sure what term is wiser wiser yeah if anything comes with more time spent on Earth it’s wisdom hopefully absolutely I that I’m really excited about that because most of my patients are middle age or older so I think that’s really quite phenomenal and be a fantastic resource so can’t wait to see see it come out um but can we kind of circle back around to plant-based protein the plant power protein because I think that’s one piece that’s a constant conversation at least in the United States culture is about where do you get your protein absolutely can we just start with some of the basic myths that we’ve heard and what is the actual facts around protein sources and how much you actually need yeah well I think the biggest myth is is that you need meat uh to get enough protein and and um you know the the reality of course is you don’t need meat to get protein uh in fact you know the essential amino acids are are largely produced by plants and so it doesn’t make sense to think we can’t get them from Plants it’s it’s where they come from um but you know protein-rich plant foods provide a more healthful more ecologically sustainable and a Kinder way of providing protein to a very rapidly growing human population and to me it just doesn’t make sense to Source protein from animals when it’s not only unnecessary but it it we’ve we’ve realized is that it it can hurt humans it’s it’s one of the biggest contributors to climate change and environmental degradation it causes a just Unthinkable suffering for billions of animals people have no idea how many animals we slaughtering every year I think it’s 70 80 billion animals and that doesn’t include anything from the ocean or the Seas uh that’s just land animals every year and uh and so you know the reality is people need about 10 to 15% of calories from protein and there are actually very few plant foods that don’t provide that much so you know uh legumes and non-starchy vegetables uh provide in the range of generally about 20 to 40% of calories from protein U most nut seeds grains are in the neighborhood of 10 to 20% um you know the only category of food in the plant-based world that is below that % um you know starchy vegetables are close around 8 to 12% but fruits are generally 1 to 10% of calories from protein but if you’re consuming a variety of plant foods and you’re getting enough calories generally you will also get enough uh protein now there are some caveats they’re you know they’re um uh for very young children uh often they’ll eat very starchy diets and and they need to get the legumes in there but but probably the biggest um issue athletes it’s not usually an issue because they eat so many calories so they can generally meet their targets um uh fairly easily but for seniors it can be a more of a challenge because seniors tend to eat less and so they’re eating fewer calories they digest uh protein less efficiently they build muscle less efficiently and so they you know there are a lot of countries now that are saying we need a separate recomend ation or RDA or whatever in their country for uh for older adults uh for these reasons and cyclopian you know Frailty and so forth may be increased by you know inadequate protein intake uh so I think for plant-based eaters uh because we tend to the digestibility of PL plant protein is a little lower uh it makes sense to be looking at slightly higher intakes for plant seniors which means because they eat less food a little bit of a greater focus on the legume group and and the nuts and seeds and so forth no that makes complete sense because I have absolutely seen this play out and sometimes I’ll see patients who are really focused in on a particular guru’s recommendations of eating a pound of this or this or that and really it takes up their appetite and they not focusing in on those really important foods like the legumes where they can get their protein sources

I’ve absolutely seen that it’s um not uncommon for sure is not uncommon at all and and you know the other thing I think is worth mentioning is that is that we now have a number of studies showing that that there’s actually an advantage to getting your protein from Plants over animals and and in terms of disease uh risk reduction uh and and probably one of the you know the biggest over I think over 400,000 individuals in this NIH study uh this is in in the United States they actually reported a 10% drop in more overall mortality when just 3% of calories from protein from animal protein were replaced with 3% of calories from plant protein and to put that in context we’re talking about 60 calories in a 2,000 calorie diet that’s less than one large egg that’s about an ounce of meat so replacing that tiny amount can reduce uh mortality about 10% on average and and so if if we brought that up to 9% 12% think of what that would mean and and you know if we if we did the math they actually Quantified the impact of various animal protein sources like like red meat and eggs and you know milk and and fish and so forth and if we if we did the math based on their their findings if we we um you know replaced uh say two ounces of meat a cup of milk and an egg uh with a plant protein we would be reducing mortality about 54% based on that particular study so it’s you know and we and we see this consistently with diabetes research cardiovascular disease research type two diabetes uh research that replacing animal protein with plant protein consistently reduces risk and significantly reduces risk there was actually a study from Japan that reported um a 50% drop in cancer mortality when 3% of calories from processed meat were replaced with plant protein and I think it was close to 40% when it was red meat so just unbelievable numbers so this this matters this you know we always you know when when we talk about protein we talk about protein quality the the you know the usual song and dance is that you know animal products have higher quality quality protein because uh the the essential amino acid profile is is is really uh complete with they have all the essential amino acids in all the right proportions and then you know it’s uh perfectly digestible so it’s it you know they call it high quality and they think of plant protein as low quality because there may be one amino acid that’s in you know shorter Supply than what we need per gram of protein um uh and and so so you know they don’t think that when we’re eating a variety of foods we store these amino acids and draw on them and this really isn’t a big issue digestibility might be you know 5 to 10% lower in in Plants but in fact that’s probably an advantage not a disadvantage in certain uh respects and and so you know what they fail that what we have failed to do as scientists is is you know somehow in that definition to include uh the health consequences of these various protein sources and the environmental consequences of our our protein choices and and to me uh uh you know protein quality is is also about these things and I think it it really would be time to redefine uh protein quality uh for today’s world so stepping outside of digestibility absorption or the perceived absorption but looking at the consequences of particular protein intake Source intake so just kind of segueing into can we highlight what is it about animal protein that makes

it so unhealthy oh there there you know there’s a la there’s a laundry list of things that that uh can can make it so unhealthy and it starts with um you know it’s one of our biggest sources of of the harmful or inflammatory fats such as um you know saturated fats uh it’s a source of trans fatty acids uh animal um protein foods are you know they they’re high on the flood chain so they’re more concentrated sources of environmental contaminants uh when we cook them uh we produce heterocyclic amines and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and advanced cation end products and and and and these kinds of you know very inflammatory uh compounds uh they are you know sources of endotoxins they’re sources of of the precursors of tmao and and and of course fish is a direct source of TMA uh so there you know they red meat is high in new5 GC which is a very pro-inflammatory molecule uh so that there are all kinds of reasons why uh these uh floods are you know less advantageous when it comes to chronic disease risk no so like just take your pick any of those sound uh scary enough to be an issue and where can people learn more as so do you highlight all these different things in your the new book a absolutely so it’s pretty comprehensive it’s not a a huge thick book but it’s pretty comprehensive and we go through all the stages of the life cycle so what do infants and children and you know uh seniors and and athletes uh need to do to ensure adequate protein and and we go through you know uh chronic diseases and you know we look at all the Practical aspects of of ensuring uh ample protein in a plantbased diet um and we even look at some of the political you know issues and arguments and some of the historical aspects and you know the food subsidies for animal products and and uh how this is something that definitely needs to change so it’s a very careful associations will be taking on another front pain they they they might not be very happy with us with this book so can we kind of get uh a little bit more specific to the amount of protein at different ages um because I think that’s a big question like GRS per kilo body weight uh people will ask that if I don’t in particular I think we could start there and I have a few F questions probably after that yeah so so for infants you’re looking at about 1.52 when they’re just newborn to six months and then it goes down to 1.2 until they’re one and then for toddlers it’s 1.05 grams per kilogram body weight and of course a kilogram is 2.2 pounds and then after that for children it’s about a gram 0.95 to be precise but it’s about a gram from four to 13 years of age and then for adolescents it’s 085 and for adults it’s 08 grams per kilogram body weight now it does increase uh to 1.1 during pregnancy 1.3 during la and and so there you know there’s increased uh recommendations there and now many countries are suggesting one to 1.2 grams per kilogram body weight for seniors we don’t have um any separate uh RDA for seniors in North America uh but but many experts are now suggesting uh that amount of protein for for older adults so um as far as protein supplementation protein powders is there ever a place for those in a whole food plant-based diet there can be I you know in my view um they’re very rarely needed but I wouldn’t say they’re never needed um so for example uh there are you know there are some athletes that um you know just for convenience uh like to have a protein boost uh when they have a smoothie for example and and they’ll use hemp protein or a combination of plant proteins in in that beverage uh for some seniors uh it it can be helpful too so getting their you know their

Lucine levels up um just makes it it’s really a matter of convenience because it is absolutely possible to get enough from plant Foods especially if you’re consuming some and this is a this is a a very important point for children and for older adults and even for athletes it can make a big difference if you consume lower fiber protein-rich plant foods and so what we’re talking because it it they have very high digestability very similar to animal products in terms of digestibility so what we’re talking about is tofu would be a good example uh veggie Meats would be a good example uh nut and Seed Butters would be good examp examples as well uh so and soy milk uh these these foods provide very highly digestible uh protein and and can make it easier for more vulnerable groups uh to meet their requirements that’s perfect and so depending on the situation and that’s where I feel like you know the guidance of someone like yourself or a physician who’s aware of the nuances of a whole food plant diet such an important piece so when they’re calculating um their doses so let’s say someone needs to lose significant amount of weight so I absolutely have those patients and they’re looking at you know obviously there’s going to be some changing to hopefully plant- based it’s already some calories decrease but maybe we want to make sure that they’re focusing in on the right number of calor because sometimes I see people go way too far the other just get them a general idea when we’re calculating that how do we base it on do we look at the ideal body weight or do we base it on their current weight like how do you calculate what those proteins are in someone who’s obese you know that that is a such an important question because if you have someone who’s 250 or 300 pounds uh and you’re you’re sort of you know rounding out and saying oh you need about a gram of protein per kilogram body weight especially when you’re losing weight you don’t want to lose too much muscle mass uh that that would mean they would need 250 you know uh um well kog they’d need 100 150 grams of protein right and and that’s you know that’s just not the way it is so so the RDA is set for um you know ideal body weight basically and or what they call healthy body weight so it assum you know you’re you’re so if you weigh 250 pounds but your healthy body weight is 150 pounds you will calculate your requirements based on the 150 pounds and even during pregnancy you and lactation you base your requirements on your pre pregancy rate as well okay that makes a lot of sense now it’s going to get to You Know M maintenance of muscle mass and in this process of losing weight um it’s I do find that something that people struggle with a little bit um as far as other things you know outside of new protein which we’ve I think highlighted and have a really good understanding and definitely need to get your book um what other things that do we need to be mindful of on a hopeful plant-based diet is there any particular um nutrients or a lack thereof especially if someone is very restrictive in their approach to a plant-based diet yes and I I I really you know there’s a lot there there’s a huge SOS community in the plant-based World which is no added salt no added sugar no added oil and and to me you know for me going plant-based is really about um helping this world to be a more U compassionate environmentally uh sustainable place we want to ensure uh Optimal

Health for people but we don’t want to make it so difficult that people don’t want to do it uh and and we still have to live amongst our our friends and family and and we want food to be delicious and appealing and and so I don’t take quite a as hard you know a very Hardline approach uh about those things and in my own diet I don’t tend to use a a lot of those but I don’t I I look at them as as um culinary enhancers and and so you may find that you know a a spicy peanut sauce it tastes a little a little better with a few drops of of um of sesame oil H and and so I think that that is absolutely fine to use uh so but but but I think we need to recognize if we’re eating uh a whole food plant-based diet uh there’s no question that that it will reduce risk of overweight and obesity of heart disease of diabetes of of cancer of cataracts of you know um you know a laundry list of of diseas is hypertension but there are a couple of things that we do need to be uh aware of one is that it we may have an increased risk of um fractures and osteoporosis uh because leaner people tend to have a higher risk we have less bone density and so we want to be really um committed to getting enough calcium and vitamin D and all of the bone building nutrients there’s a long list of them but but that that means just eating a a reasonable variety of foods it’s not a bad thing necessarily to be having some fortified Foods it’s not easy to meet the RDA for calcium for a nine or 10 year old at300 milligrams a day eating only whole plant foods and not including some fortified non-dairy milks uh it maybe be uh relatively easy to reach five or 600 milligrams but not very easy to reach 1300 so if you’re aiming to meet the RDA which is not a bad idea um including some of these fortified foods can be really helpful uh and and and there are you know higher risks now and this I think is really important for people to recognize that with omnivorous diets there’s a greater risk for deficiency of you know vitamin C and pottassium and and and folate and you know there’s certain nutrients they tend to be vitamin E lowering and the same goes with a plant-based diet there are certain nutrients that that we are at higher risk for deficiencies of and that includes vitamin B12 um plant foods are not reliable sources of B12 uh so reliable sources are supplements and fortified

Foods uh and and of course for people that are plant predominant or who are lacto oval vegetarian they can also rely on on you know some of the animal products they might include and unless they’re over 50 the government says if you’re over 50 do not rely on animal products for B12 because B12 is bound to protein and animal products and you need enough you know you need enough um stomach acid and enzymes to be able to fad the B12 off of the protein it’s B to and a lot of people over 50 uh you know just aren’t doing it very efficiently so that’s just a to take note of and but but um so B12 basically uh you know know adults may have enough storage to last them six to months to two years or something like that um babies newborn babies born to B12 deficient mothers don’t um they will have irreversible brain damage in in Fairly short order if they’re not provided uh B12 and so as vegetarians or vegans we really need to know that we need to make sure we this is not a nutrient you mess with we make sure you’ve got a source of12 in diet um and and then other nutrients that that are important to consider are vitamin D but that’s not just for plant-based eaters that’s for everyone uh the bulk of the people in the world I think are probably not getting enough vitamin D even if they you know are relatively exposed to Sunshine it seems not to be enough a lot of people have have low levels and but vegans especially or plant exclusive eaters have fewer food sources so you know big sources like fish and eggs uh that are of course excluded in and and and dairy products which you know we use I we we uh we uh fortify dairy products with vitamin D but where do we get it in plant Foods well you know vitamin D fortified niry milks is a is a perfect example but rarely do people get you know uh 600 uh you know iuse from from fortified Foods so most of us need a supplement uh and then I iodine can be an issue so a lot of plant-based eaters uh they tend to you know want o natural and so they don’t want iodine salts they want fancy sea salts or whatever which are not I good iodine sources unless if you’re vegan unless you’re eating seaweed on a regular basis seaweed is a hyperconcentrated uh source of of iodine if you’re not eating seaweed then you’re probably um you know not getting enough iodine if you’re not using iodine Sal so that’s another thing that you would need to consider supplementing or you know a tiny bit of Cel powder something like that but but again you know iodine is interesting because for children you know the the uh RDA maybe 120 micrograms and the upper limit maybe 300 so it’s it’s it’s a you need to be very careful because Cel powder a 16th of a teaspoon is 150 micrograms on average and and so you know an eighth of a teaspoon you could be at the upper limit of small child so so you need to be really cautious now Nory sheets or those little Nory snack packs uh those uh don’t are not hyper concentrated they’re they’re you know moderately uh good sources of iodine so they they’re quite a safe way of getting iodine as well uh and then and then the other nutrients that pop up as as potential issues are you know Iron and zinc um omega-3 f fatty acids so iron vegans consume more iron than omnivores but we absorb less uh the the bioavailability of iron and plant Foods is a little lower now we can eat it you know when we eat iron rich foods like legumes we can eat them with you know vitamin C rich foods uh we can eat them with you know garlic and onions and carotenoid rich foods to help enhance that absorption so those are things we can do uh and then zinc is one that is really important for immune function and for for optimal growth of children so it a lack of zinc can cause a you know a stunting of children if it’s fairly severe and and zinc the most concentrated sources again are leggings nuts and seeds so leggings nuts and seeds iron zinc protein uh very very important foods in a pl-based diet and and then finally omega-3 fatty acids well we get plenty we’re eating chia seeds and flax seeds and hemp seeds and walnuts of alpha linolenic acid but are but the more biologically active form of Omega-3s is is EPA or iosa pentanoic acid and DHA or doosa hexanoic acid and those fatty acids are much bigger Longer more biologically active as I mentioned they’re very important they’re important for brain function they’re important for your eyes they’re important for your cell membranes for for all of the iids and resolve and protections that your body produces so these are really important nutrients and we do convert the plantform to these longchain Omega-3s but the conversion is um you know it is not that efficient and it gets less efficient if we have hypertension or diabetes or if we’re aging uh the conversion can can be low and so my recommendation would be to include an EPA DHA supplement and people think of EPA and DHA as being the fish fats and you need to eat fish to get them but in fact fish get their EPA and DHA from microalgae in the ocean and so you know we can actually culture and and grow this DH and EPA rich microti and not have to rate the oceans to get it we’re just growing it and and and it’s it’s fairly available and fairly affordable so this is a to me a very reasonable supplement to choose yes so agree 150% with everything you’re saying so yeah absolutely see what I supplement myself and recommend patients obviously B12 is non-negotiable like I want to make sure and what I found with patients is when I’m chesting their blood levels over you know 20 years of being physician whether these are omnivorous people or plant-based people is if I can get them above 500 you know 500 to 1100 they’re non-symptomatic but even in that lower range of normal I will see people symptomatic at B12 deficiency it’s it’s quite remarkable um so that’s one piece and then iodine so I’ve had I attract sorts of plant-based folks because it makes sense I’m licens everywhere but they come in been SOS free for a significant amount of time get diagnosed with hypothyroidism and they’re like what’s going on I’m eating this plant-based diet I’m like oh are you getting a source of iodine they’re like no we checked their iodine 24-hour urine collection sure enough we replace it either with you know eyeye salt or a supplement clears right up and yeah and but I take vitamin D as well like I lived in Florida would run I love to run out in the sun I’m lightskinned so melanin is not so much a factor I still was low yes and good crazy there was a study from Hawaii looking at people that were getting 11 hours of fullbody Sun per week wow and they were still low uh so it it really is a nutrient that most people are not getting enough of and it’s so important for bone health but it’s important for many other things as well yeah so I think we we just need to look at you know I I myself take you know a thousand I a day um in you know especially in the winter time my husband takes two and my writing partner who’s is 82 now I think she she’s taking about four to her levels at a healthy range so can vary as you get older you may need more I take 2,000 I use daily of vitamin D and my levels are will hit upper 30s low 40s which is a nice you know place because you don’t want to be too high so of course you take too much it’s amazing I all see patients comeing and someone has put them on like 10,000 I use a day and I’m like we’re gonna stop that um so it’s really fascinating um I did a whole workshop on plant-based labs and discussion of you know what we should be checking for and why and gave an ebook and explaining um like homosysteine Masonic acid looking at the B12 why we need to do these things but yeah and then I take the alga Omega 3s as well because you know

I think of it as an insurance policy for brain health heart health so many factors involved here until we get more evidence that indeed you need a certain amount but I have so many people who are nut phobic they’re they’re nut phobic and also there’s a there’s um you know a group of people within this movement that um believ that EPA and DHA are not only not necessary but are dangerous that incre they increase your risk of prostate cancer this is just simply not true uh I mean some of the studies on this are you know showing um just super you know with super super high intakes and such but on a plant-based diet and plant-based supplements they’re very it it’s just getting us by taking a supplement of you know three to 500 milligrams a day or so yeah a small amount it just will get us into the Zone that’s safe um and so it makes me sad to see people fearing taking this kind of supplement because uh it I think it it really can be quite protective long for long-term health and we you know we’re on trial in the eyes of the world as plant-based eaters and we need to show that that this diet can support Health uh even well into our our senior years I mean we do have some good evidence from the Adventist Health study too and of course you know lomalinda being one of the blue zones and so forth but we want to really maximize our chances of of keeping our brains functioning well well you know I think that’s really important to highlight a few things and it and it kind of it’s outside of the practicalities of what you should be supplementing or eating but just this innate concern about like they’ve made a wrong choice if someone’s recommending that they take some type of supplement like they feel like it should be the be all end all perfect solution and I it’s really hard to get over this belief and this fear or shame or for example if I do have someone eating a whole food plant-based diet and something occurs like they become anxious or they difficulty with insomnia I mean it’s a recurring thing like I should I’m doing everything right why is something going wrong you’re a human there’s lots of things that could go on it’s a complex thing going on here so it’s really sad to think that so many people are like well we need a plant-based diet we don’t need to be doing that we don’t need to worry about this and that I was like actually you just need to be you know understanding that we need to be very conscious of any type of diet we’re consuming there are going to be things that we need to be conscious of and make sure we’re eating a wide variety of these foods but also you know it’s a Nuance thing some people are taking medications that decrease absorption there’s genetics you know issues there’s you know age there’s all sorts of things occurring and there should be no shame in no absolutely and if you come from a from a culture where fish was a a a real Staple in the diet yeah you you just may naturally not produce as many of the desaturated enzymes that convert plant Omega-3s into longchain Omega-3s and also if you’ve been eating an ‘s diet for for 40 years and then all of a sudden become plant-based certain certain processes can become downregulated because you you know you’re not needing to do conversions that you would need to do as a plant-based eater I I think I I love what you said because I think that people need to recognize that that um it doesn’t matter what dietary pattern you’re consuming all diets need to be appropriately planned and and if you’re eating an omnivorous diet uh your your focus needs to be on reducing chronic disease uh risk and and and getting you know the saturated fat lower and and you know eating less of the foods that may potentially increase your risk of diabetes and heart disease and so forth if you’re eating a and and and I should say as well that you know it’s been many many years that we have been adding nutrients to foods for omnivores so we had vitamin D to milk we add folic acid to flour we add iron to flour we add iodine to Salt we we figured out from a public health perspective how to reduce the risk of nutritional deficiencies in the general population and so with plant-based eaters it’s no different there are going to be we have a way lower risk of chronic diseases but there may be a higher risk for a lack of certain nutrients and so in my opinion we should be you know fortifying foods for plant-based eaters to ensure that we minimize that risk but we should also be educating people so that they know how to design a diet to minimize the risk and where uh supplements are really needed uh it’s just not you know you’re shooting yourself in the foot if you think that oh I’m just going to do it on natural I’m not going to worry about the12 because when you when you don’t think about 12 your homocysteine shoots up you your risk of heart disease shoots up your risk of you know birth defects and your Offspring shoot shoots up it’s just not worth the risk what we need to do is to prove this diet can work for everyone and work really well and so if we see a you know potential Pitfall we’re the ones that need to figure out highlight it fix it yeah exactly fix it just get it resolved do it this makes perfectly common sense but yes it’s when people get such a restrictive thought you know because and don’t get me wrong I love all the gurus and the ogs of the plant-based space but they have their particular tenant on what they consider absolutely the rule of thumb when it comes to whole F plant me St I take a like you I take a much more broader approach like every category food has its important piece and then certain supplementation like I said for B12 across the board vitamin D for those who are deficient test don’t guess and a megas as an insurance policy especially for babies pregnant women and as we get older again across the board but it’s just just a it’s so frustrating when for example I have comments on my YouTube I can’t wait to see the comments on this but anyway I got these comments on my YouTube page and one of them was I can’t remember know who

I had interviewed but they were like well I’m sure Dr marbus uh tells patients to avoid nuts because of you know the potential heart risk so I went out of my way and listed 10 reasons why nuts were actually heart healthy and it it it it it boggles my mind why people are like will judge you as a physician or if you’re interviewing someone and they’re saying go eat nuts and they’re like nope you can’t because a heart disease risk and I’m like there’s no no evence that I’m aware of that nuts are going to be harmful to your cardiovascular it’s just the opposite but if you have evidence or any thoughts on such a thing I would love to hear that well well you know if you just go to Pub Med do a search on nuts and health nuts and cardiovascular disease nuts and diabetes you will pretty much 100% of the time find that they’re protective and and they are one of as a matter of fact in the Adventist Health study they came out as being the most protective food they were they were more protective than anything uh and and it’s because nuts contain you know when you eat a whole food plant-based diet uh the level of fat is pretty low and nuts are a source of very high quality protected fats they’re naturally protected in the whole food and and they are loaded with tra you know these foods are loaded with Trace and certain things that you don’t get as much of from other and you know selenium and Brazil nuts and and each nut provides something a little bit different and they are really uh important to me not just because they’re so nutritious but also because you need a certain amount of fat to maximize your absorption of fat soluble nutrients there are many like vitamin d and vitamin E and so forth that are fat soluble and you need some fat to maximize absorption and also fat is so critical to the body’s functioning to the brain to your you know your cell membranes to you know just for protection of the Body for the production of all of these chemicals that control various body systems for the production of hormones there’s so many things that fat is important for you don’t want to be eating excessive fat you don’t want to be especially eating excessive harmful fats like saturated fat and trans fatty acids you don’t want to be eating excessive oxidized fats fats that have been cooked at very high temperatures or have gone rancid but fats as part of an avocado or a nut or a seed are really healthy foods and the reason why they’ve got this little black mark in the plant-based Community is because of the early work on reversing heart disease by Dr Dean ornish and by Dr cwell eston right and their studies they wanted to get fats so low that they could actually reverse the plaque in blood vessels in very very sick uh patients with severe coronary artery disease and so they excluded high fat plant

Foods now they got wonderful results and we give them all the credit for that but they never did the study comparing that diet with the very same diet that included an ounce of nuts or seeds and and I’m not sure what would happen if they did it may be that the people with the small amount of nuts or seeds do even better I know the question is still up in the air thank you this is like the duh if I could hug you virtually I word right now this is absolutely so true and it’s so nice to hear this discussion because h i I have had patients who have been very ill with Cardis now I can’t compare and say it’s a a study and you know it’s was published or anything but for my own personal anecdotal case reports and that I have with patients have done very well with addition of you know half a cup a quarter cup to half a cup of a variety of nuted seeds specifically encouraging walnuts Tia flax you know pumpkin seeds you know whatever they FL but you know these are wonderful Foods my own experience just my in of one when I first went on a whole food plant-based diet 12 years ago I went really Allin very strict lowfat cut out you know one I literally overnight we’ eat pretty healthy before but this literally just cut everything out I didn’t really cook with oil before or anything like that so I went from you know I wouldn’t say I’d say a healthier American Tile diet to strictly SOS plant-based I was eating fruits you know veggies beans whole grains but I got over a period of time got really kind of down like my mood was down I was like what is going on and as I started doing my research like I think I need some more fat in my diet and so I went because I was always dinner already I added nuts and seeds back in and my mood improved dramatically and so I I’m really that’s where I really became new you know conscious of the the what people were eating plus I had some other patients you know how they when I said first go plant-based they justed fruits and veggies and they didn’t include you know legumes and you know the starchy veggies and other things like that that would support them with enough calories and whole grains to feel Su you know not only satiated but have energy to sustain them and they would come back fatigued and I was like okay Lori you have to be very specific in your recommendations so I it’s really interesting though but there will be people who will they will they will shun people in a whole food plant-based Community if they’re eating nuts or seeds or they say it’s okay to consume a little bit of oil like I’m sure I’m going to probably get some hate meal on this but I don’t use oil I don’t use oil to cook it’s not in my home but if you are healthy and you want CH to use olive oil or like you said a little sesame oil and little peanut sa that’s okay and you’re it’s okay and I think we need to also be conscious of um you know just our our cultural heritage as well and In some cultures you know olive oil is such um an important staple and and people that have grown up with it it’s really hard for them to completely give it up and I’m not sure they really need to uh and and so they’re you know again if you look at the Blu zones it’s so interesting because in okanawa it was a very low fat around 10% of calories from fat or so maybe 11 uh and and then in the ncoa peninsula and and in Sardinia and and Linda it was like 25 to 30% of calories for fat and then in iara Greece it was you know 35 to 50% of calories lot of ol interesting and yet you know so really broad differences in uh fat uh content the fat and carbohydrate the the protein was pretty much 10 to 15 % across the board but in terms of the fat and carbohydrate there were there were big differences and to me it what matters most is the source of the macronutrients as opposed to the you know uh percentages of them and so I think there’s wiggle room for people who are eating slightly different dietary patterns and we want to make everyone feel as though they belong in this community uh regardless of whether or not they include you know some concentrated fat C oils or some salt or whatever the case may be and and certainly I tend to be a little more um hardcore when we’re trying to reverse a but yeah but for a healthy athletes sometimes including a little bit of oil makes it so much easier for them to meet their caloric requirements and they’re burning 5,000 calories a day it can be really hard to eat that much food and oil is so concentrated calories it can it can make it a bit easier and so I I I I don’t know I I think we are so on the same page this yes 100% And then of course if you have a little few minutes to touch upon the soy I think is I’m such a fan of soy and to and I’m I’m constantly constantly dising my soy is such a healthy food unless you’re allergic to it but could you speak to the benefits of soy products please yeah so this is probably one of my biggest frustrations you know because um you know the the the um hate against soy and the anti- soy sentiments are are essentially you can you can trace them back to the West na A price foundation

Mary enig and Sally Fallon and and they are probably the biggest anti-vegetarian movement in the world and they’ll they’ll go to the extent of saying vegans are the only people that shouldn’t be breastfeeding because their breast milk won’t be good enough I mean they’re really anti-vegetarian and and very Pro meat and milk and and that if you trace back the anti- soy stuff it it almost always lands at Mary and EG and Sally p and and so I I think that you know what we need to recognize first is to me the acid test where soy is concerned is to look at the longest lived people on the planet the places where they have more centenarians than anywhere else in the world two out of the fly five blue zones soy is a staple if soy was poison it probably wouldn’t be a staple in two out of five of the blue zones lomalinda and okanawa and they average a couple of servings of soy a day they may be more um research on soy than any other single food there are so many studies and the studies very consistently show uh reduced risk of certain types of cancer uh reduced recurrence of cancer uh better survival especially with breast cancer with prostate cancer uh we see uh reduced risk of heart disease we see reduced risk of kidney disease uh we see less male P pattern oldness we see better uh reduced symptoms of menopause in women um soy is a very if we want to say high quality

But A protein that includes a wonderful mix of essential fatty acids uh tofu which is you know some of the more popular soy foods like tofu and soy milk are very digestible uh proteins soy is one of the most versatile Foods on the planet it because you can use it as a meat substitute you can use it as a milk substitute you can use it in baking you can you know you can just use it in so many applications from a culinary perspective it makes being vegetarian or vegan more enjoyable more nutritious um and and so I I just it makes me sad when people who are plant- Bas say oh soy is dangerous the the the evidence is Absolut absolutely overwhelming in the opposite direction now there there is some discussion about you know um organic versus you know conventionally grown soy and I think organic soy it’s not sprayed with glyphosate and it it’s not genetically modified and so on so if those are concerns to you definitely buy organic but what I find is that a lot of the soy for people is organic or is at least not GMO the soy that’s grown for Animals is the conventional and sprayed like crazy and the animals eat it and then we eat the animals and think it’s not a problem so people don’t they they look my goodness yes we never look up River it’s like okay what’s feeding that you know animal that I’m eating that’s comes in the plastic cellophane WP absolutely oh yes so we have hit so many of the really important point so I wanted to discuss it and I’ve kept you past the hour you promised me so thank you that’s absolutely fine I had such fun doing it oh thank you so much man I I am it’s just it’s just fantastic and I’m G to make sure and put your books on uh my my list I give to patients and certainly I don’t know why it took me so long to ask you to get on this podcast it’s been going on for like I should have reached out a long time ago oh well thank you for reaching I’m delighted to be connected with you because we’re so on the same page yes yes oh yes yes yes it’s it’s so refreshing to see someone who’s been in this field and such a respected um researcher and you know someone who’s actually practiced this with patience and all these amazing things understand what I’m saying because there’s so many that aren’t they’re just so stuck in their dogma and their way of doing things and I was like I’m like I’m seeing the patience this is what I’m seeing and everything you’re saying resonates so true and I really appreciate it you have no idea oh well thank you so much it was so fun to be with you today oh well everyone I hope you listen to this and if you have any hateful comments just keep them to yourself but these is this is we just speaking the truth from experience in research and this very sound scientific background so thank you again Brenda we really so appreciate your your investment in your career and just really make making things so much more easy for people to understand and just making way for us behind you well my uh my privilege and thank you so much for having me Lor