How Plant-Based Diets Transform Health – Real-Life Success Stories with Brenda Davis

my name is Brenda Davis I’m a registered dietitian I went vegan in 1989 I was living in Northern Ontario at the time and it’s a bit of a story how I ended up becoming vegan but it started when I was actually in high school and so this is the early 70s and I I was just interested in the whole concept of vegetarian and people not not eating meat but after going to University for nutrition uh they they they took that interest away because they basically I learned two things about plant-based diets in University one was that vegan diets were downright dangerous and vegetarian diets were risky that was it people who were interested in vegetarian were made to feel as though uh it was very fringy very risky and very unprofessional to be even thinking about so what pushed me over the edge after I I was in Public Health Nutrition was I I you know I was kind of leaning in a plant-based Direction but I had an interaction with a friend who was on his way deer hunting and he’ stopped by for coffee on his way and we were talking and and I just I wanted to stop him from killing another deer um so I said to him I said I I just don’t understand why you go in the woods with a big gun and kill such a beautiful innocent creature who just wants to live um and I I said something not very nice I said does it does it somehow make you feel like more of a man killing something and it was actually what he replied to me that I would say changed the course of my life he said you know Brenda just because you don’t have the guts to pull the trigger yourself does not mean you are not responsible for the trigger being pulled every time you buy a piece of meat camouflaged in celophane in the grocery store he said at least the animals I eat have had a life he said Can Can you say the same for the ones that are sitting on your plate and it was the first time anyone had ever asked me to take responsibility for where my food was coming from and it really impacted me I thought to myself I need to learn more about my food sources and so I just started researching it was quite a coincidence because I first of all started ordering articles from agricultural journals and I I you know within probably a week I thought to myself I I can’t stand the system of Cruelty that we’ve created uh to produce our food I mean my mom grew up on a farm and and I I always pictured that kind of you know a beautiful Farm image when I pictured animals on farms and of course uh the reality was very far from that and I thought to myself why would I choose to contribute to pain suffering and death when I don’t have to I I I mean I’m a dietitian I know how to put together a diet that doesn’t con include animal products that’s quite adequate for humans approached my husband had two children at the time uh ages 4 and one and I said to my husband I I would really like to become a a vegetarian I’m wondering if you’d be willing to do that with me and his response absolutely shocked me he looked at me he smiled he said I thought you’d never ask he said I’d love to be a vegetarian he said when I was in university studying environmental Sciences we learned that the best thing you could do for the environment was to eat lower on the food chain so he said I’m in and uh and that was it I mean it was really scary for me because as a dietitian 35 or whatever years ago I actually didn’t know if there was another living breathing registered dietician on the planet that was a vegetarian and and I was pretty much going vegan I thought I’d just be ousted from the profession and and I remember going through a thing in my mind should I stay in in the nutrition world I gave myself a bit of a pep talk and I said to myself if I don’t stay when I’m seeing sort of this bigger picture and everybody who starts to get it just leaves what will ever change change happens from within a little more easily and I thought I need to have the courage to stand up for what I’m seeing and what I believe and try to aect that change from within my profession and that was the beginning and within a year of making that decision my husband and I moved to Vancouver where there was actually real live vegetarians we met for the first time in our lives so that’s the story of how I ended up transitioning to a plant-based diet so how do you do something that might be like totally contradicting what the norm is saying to do it was about seeing this big picture seeing what our diet does to animals what our diet does to the environment and of course what our diet does to our health as well and everything I was seeing in terms of health was pointing to the most protective components being concentrated in plant Foods as opposed to being concentrated in animal Foods the the you know components of animal Foods when the saturated fat and and the you know environmental contaminants that work their way up the food chain all of that it just made so much sense to me that we see a global shift towards a more plant-based way of eating and so I I just felt in my bones that it was my obligation as a human being to try to affect change in my profession and for public health uh so that was it for me it was really an ethical um belief I just felt so strongly that I needed to do what I could do uh to to make a a difference one of the things that that I you know really I I felt was absolutely Paramount was that I knew my staff because I knew I would be challenged by my peers and and so I I just read everything I could so I remember getting a hold of the World Health organization’s 1990 diet nutrition and the prevention of chronic disease report it was probably the most Earth shattering thing I I had read to that point it was so powerful politically and much of what they were saying was exactly what I believed that that that the the link between diet and disease was so strong and that that the you know the connection between uh National governments and industries agricultural Industries was undermining the health of populations and that things needed to change and people needed to be eating more whole plant Foods really and fewer animal Foods fewer processed foods and this was back in 1990 and it was a really powerful document and that’s when Dean ornish’s the lifestyle heart trial came out as well showing that we could actually reverse coronary artery disas with a plant-based diet and so things were starting to turn around at that point and I discovered that there were a few other dietitians who were in The plant-based world like Jenny massina and Reed mangles and George Iceman and uh and and then I discovered Michael clapper’s two books vegan pure and simple and vegan pregnancy I remember they were like a treasure to me they were absolutely like a treasure and I discovered John Robins diet for new America he’s a absolutely brilliant writer and his discussions of the animal issues oh uh they moved me so much I they were really powerful and then I I read some of John mcdougall’s uh word so I saw that there was a a community that was starting and uh and I thought you know this is something I need to do and when we moved to Vancouver I met two dietitians who were vegetarian um one was a sth day Adventist and one was sort of more like a hippie I guess panto my writing partner vanto Molina and and I was so excited to meet other dietitians who were vegetarian and very shortly after meeting them vanto myself and another dietician Victoria Harrison decided to write a book on vegetarian nutrition and we called it becoming vegetarian and it was really a vegan book in Disguise because people were not ready for the word vegan yet um but we wrote this vegetarian book and it’s quite a story because this was 1992 when we started came out in ’94 and the dairy industry in Canada thought oh this book will really be promoting Dairy it’s a vegetarian book and so they you know got a hold of it and of course we had a CH it was a like I say a vegan book in Disguise we had a chapter called without dairy and they were mortified and they they actually um wrote a 45 page rebuttal to our book made it free of charge for every health professional every doctor every dietitian in the country they took out a full page ad in our professional journal to try to discredit our work and to discredit us personally as well definitely some push back but what was really interesting is that within my profession I never got the flag I thought I would get a lot of the dietitians were finding that they were getting clients who were vegetarian and they needed resources to help them and they were so grateful for the work we were doing to put together resources that could help health professionals help their patients do this right I ended up becoming the chair of the vegetarian arm of the American dietetic Association in 2000 which was really quite uh something to me and then the other thing that happened was I spoke a few times for the at the American dietetic Association which is now the Academy of nutrition and dietetics but I also spoke for dieticians of Canada and this was a lot of years ago and I’ll never forget I I was being interviewed um by somebody in the head office and and unbeknownst to me one of the people working at her computers listening to the interview the head of dietitians of Canada and she came up to me after and G gave me this little box this little gift it was a little momento from dietitians of Canada and she said I just want you to know that you make me so proud to be a dietician thank you for the amazing work you’ve done and and so you know that that push back from my profess my profession that I expected never really happened and I think it was because we banto and myself when when we wrote Our books we just finished our 13th book the books we’ve written we were always very science-based and balanced and so if there was something about a vegan diet that that could be a little iffy whether it was B12 or vitamin D or iodine or whatever uh we laid the cards out on the table and and our goal you know my goal as a dietitian was always to make sure that people who wanted to live this way who wanted to eat this way would succeed brilliantly where we wouldn’t see B12 deficiency in in their children or or or any other nutritional deficiency where they would know how to put together a diet that really works you know I always feel like vegans have been on trial in the eyes of the world and continue to be and until we see little uh vegan babies who grow up into old age and do brilliantly we will remain on trial in the eyes of the world and we need to get it right because a failed vegan is exhibit number one for why people are Justified eating meat and and so I think it’s really important that if we’re doing this we do it responsibly and we make sure that our needs are being met I’m so glad you said all of that I want to redefine veganism to include humans in the equations of of Ethics towards animals you know and and I think it should I think we should be trying to be as healthy as we can be like you said to role model this in the proper way let’s start with children is there any reason whatsoever any child on this planet that you’re aware of can’t be raised vegan or should I say do you feel like all children could benefit from being raised on a whole food plant-based diet you know what’s really interesting about children and a variety of diets what we know is that the advantages of being completely plant-based no question reduce risk of chronic disease and that’s a wonderful thing for adults for children goal number one is adequate growth and development and a vegan diet can pose a little bit greater risk in terms of of uh lack of vitamin D vitamin B12 iodine so we just need to be careful about ensuring those nutrients are included and one of the things that I think is really important for people to recognize is that most of our nutritional education materials are geared at omnivores not at vegans and so parents have some responsibility it doesn’t matter what kind of diet is fed to children all diets for children need to be appropriately planned and there’s no you know difference for a vegan diet the thing about the vegan diet for children is that children who are vegan tend to eat more fruits and vegetables they tend to eat more whole grains more legumes more nuts and seeds and fewer processed foods less sugar less junk and so they tend to be leaner definitely lower risk of obesity they have a lot of energy they they do they tend to do very very well but on that other side we just have to make sure we’re providing reliable sources of some of the nutrients can fall short in plant Foods specifically vitamin B12 that’s number one and then of course vitamin D depending on the amount of sunshine iodine if you’re not using salt or iodized salt specifically or seaweed we need to be conscious of of trace minerals like iron and zinc and so forth but so do people eating any diet so we just need to learn about the sources of those nutrients even calcium you know we omnivores rely largely on dairy products for calcium and now we have many niry products or dairy Replacements that have about the same amount of calcium in them and so including some of those things whether it’s soy milk or pea milk or whatever uh for children can really help to get those needs met the you know to get the calcium up there and the vitamin D up there when we’re including some of these fortified foods but certainly you know even the position of the Academy of nutrition and dietetics states very clearly that well-planned vegetarian or vegan diets can meet nutrient needs at every stage of the life cycle uh whether it’s during you know pregnancy and lactation infancy childhood adolescence there is no reason that a a a vegan diet can’t provide sufficient nutrition uh there there are some children that have multiple allergies can eat legumes can eat nuts or seeds that presents a very different issue but there are also some people in the world like for instance I work with a a group in the Marshall of with people of the Marshall Islands and in the Marshall Islands you know supplements are not common and they’re living on little islands and so fish is a as a very intrical part of their culture and their their you know their food system and so it makes sense for them to be using some fish in some other cultures where you know food choices are very limited and food supply is very limited they may need to use some animal products to provide sufficient calories and sufficient nutrition for their children but in developed countries where we have access to a wide range of food fortified foods and all of these things it’s actually relatively simple and very very safe to provide a really good vegan diet for children and the you know there were two studies that just came out of uh Germany the vety studies the veety toddler study the vety youth study that showed that vegan children compared to lacto oval vegetarian children or omnivorous children grow at about the same rates they get similar amount of calories they you know they were they all did very well and even looking at protein intakes the the children the regardless of their dietary category were meeting their nutrient needs and meeting their nutrient needs for most nutrients uh and the vegan children had the highest intakes for many nutrients so it’s you know with omnivorous children it’s it’s different nutrients that they would need to be concerned about so you know sometimes vitamin A vitamin C vitamin E folate uh can be short if they’re not not including a lot of fruits and vegetables whereas for vegan children it would be B12 and you know just other nutrients V zinc may be an issue but zinc in the vegie studies actually vegans had the highest intake so it’s it you know it really depends on food choices and how you’re putting the diets together now as far as calcium’s concerned do we really need to depend on fortified drink really and truly it’s a little tricky for children to get enough just by eating greens because the quantity they consume are often fairly limited it’s not impossible if you have tofu that’s made with calcium if you include some of the you know the chia seeds and the almonds and the figs and lots of beans and but generally the amount they eat if you’re trying to meet the RDA especially which is like 1,000 milligram for 4 to 8y olds it can be really challenging you throw in one or two cups of fortified milk and you’ll easily get them to that Target for adults because we eat a bigger volume of food uh it’s and we tend to eat we can eat easily large volumes of of uh low oxalate greens it’s a little easier but even for adults if you had one cup of fortified non-ir milk it would definitely get you to where you want to go and especially as a senior for women over 50 men over 70 with the RDA is 12200 Mig uh to reach that Target is more challenging and and you know it is debatable whether or not we really need that much because there are many countries in the world that have lower rdas for calcium and seem to amble along reasonably well and plant-based eaters we consume you know it’s a less acidic diet we consume less sodium we consume less of the things that tend to compromise calcium absorption I would say and so we may need a little bit less I don’t think it’s a bad idea to aim for the RDA and at least in that realm I have to say you know of all the studies of Epic Oxford and the the studies looking at Health outcomes of people eating vegan diets we do so well where heart disease is concerned where cancer is concerned where diabetes is concerned where gout is concerned you know all of these different diverticular disease you name it the one place we don’t do as well is bone density and osteoporosis risk one of the reasons is because we’re leaning leer and and and we have less bone mass because we’re leaner and so we’re at a little bit higher risk and then and then we had that polish study of the children from Poland who were 5 to 10 years old vegan children really did have lower bone mass and so we want to be somewhat conscious because we want to get this right so we want to be conscious about making sure that we get enough calcium vitamin D you know all of the nutrients that are important for bone health enough protein know all of those nutrients to build and maintain strong bones and to reach a reasonable Peak bone mass during childhood and so it’s not just a matter of oh just eat any old thing a variety of plant foods and you’ll be all good just not that simple because plant Foods aren’t good sources of B12 they can be reasonable sources of calcium but you need to be aware of the foods that are rich sources of calcium if you think well leafy greens are a great source but your main leafy Green is spinach well you get about 5% of the calcium from spinach as opposed to 40 to 70% for other you know the low oxalate greens like like kale and and a lot of the Chinese greens and turnup greens and and so forth I mean Swiss chard beat greens and spinach are are very rich in calcium but they’re very poor sources of calcium because we can’t absorb much of the calcium that they provide now because of the oxalates because of the oxalates AR is like pretty much destroyed by by maybe heating or or getting baby leaves and things like that the oxalates can be reduced in cooking but they’re definitely not eliminated so I would still be you know not rely on those greens as calcium sources and I wonder in these studies do they control for the amount of greens these people are even eating and and like sunshine because you know vitamin D of course helps with that right yeah and vitamin D helps hugely with calcium absorption and so does eating small amounts of calcium throughout the day rather than one large Bolis like if you drink you know a a cup and a half of milk or or plant-based fortified milk you’ll absorb much less of the calcium if you’re drinking it all at once than if you have little bits of calcium throughout the day because it the rate of absorption decreases as the amount uh increases and so there are all kinds of little tricks but generally um we just want to be conscious of of including the low oxalate greens and eating them in a reasonable volume I’ve heard the same thing about iron too yeah so iron uh the absorption of iron can be greatly compromised by Fates and by polyphenolic compounds like the tannins in tea for example um but the biggest source of Fates for a lot of people is wheat brand especially in the 80s where people sprinkled brand on everything and because it’s it’s such a high source of fiber but it’s also such a high source of Fates that it can reduce iron absorption from about 50 to 90% in a meal so we don’t want to be sprinkling foods with bran and we just want to be conscious if you’re a big tea drinker for example and you drink the high Tannon teas like black tea or green tea or white tea really want to be keeping that separate from your meals if you have any issues with your iron status so you know I you know at least an hour you know before or after that you would be drinking the tea and or look for teas that are you know herbal teas that aren’t high in tannins can’t you profoundly increase absorption just adding a little lemon juice and whatnot and drinking maybe a little orange juice or something with that iron rich food oh absolutely so so the greatest enhancers of iron absorption are vitamin C and organic acids there are some you know things that have a lot less research to sort of back them but things like garlic and onions and ginger and black pepper and there are other things that can also enhance iron absorption but the main one really is is vitamin C and and organic acids and fruits and vegetables but what really prompted this segment of the conversation was I think I’ve heard before that you can increase iron absorption try not to get it all once that’s true yes absolutely so generally when you’re having small bits throughout the day I think it’s one of the advantages of a vegan diet to be honest because almost everything you eat has little bits of calcium little bit of iron in fact vegans actually consume more iron than any other dietary Group which shocks people because they think well meat’s the main source of iron but almost everything you eat as a vegan provides iron so what we see is we see omnivores eating maybe 16 or 17 18 uh milligrams a day and and vegans eating 20 21 22 it’s not a huge difference but we fairly consistently see higher intakes among among vegans and vegans generally don’t have a higher rate of iron deficiency but we do see a little bit higher rate in in um men stting women uh for for whatever reason of course in plant Foods it’s non heem iron which aren’t absorbed as efficiently as heem iron um but that may end up working to our advantage because High diets high in heem iron do tend to be associated with more you know heart disease more diabetes and so forth he he iron can serve as a prooxidant non- heem iron can’t so that’s you know that’s that’s important too now could it be that the rdas I think and you’ve already said this aren’t necessarily for designed for vegans and vegans may have such a different physiological disposition that maybe they not only need less of certain nutrients but maybe they also have different things going on different metabolic pathways and different enzymes or whatever if they’re raised the vegan if they’re raised on a whole food PL could it be that they’re maybe more protective from these deficiencies that that other vegans are and you know to be honest we don’t really know for sure but what we do know is in particular with calcium is that uh the the calcium requirements vary dramatically with multiple factors so sun exposure how much weightbearing exercise you’re doing how much sitting you’re doing if you smoke cigarettes if you there just so many factors how much vitamin K you eat how much protein you eat how much vitamin C you consume how much you know all of there are so many nutrients that that you know contribute to bone health and so there there are multiple factors a person in Africa who has a larger bone structure who’s carrying water on their head and carrying babies on their back or whatever it is who’s outside all day in the sunshine they’re requirements may be a lot less than someone who’s in North America who’s sitting at a desk smoking a cigarette and and very sedentary and eating a lot of salt and meat they would have much higher calcium requirements and so it’s hard to say you know if you’re vegan you need x amount it depends on are you active are you Outdoors are you in the sunshine how dark as your skin um there are just many many factors that affect uh calcium absorption and so generally I think we could feel fairly safe to say that that vegans probably require a little bit less calcium than uh someone who’s consuming a very highly processed high sodium meat-based diet how much less we don’t know what we do know is vegans tend to have lower bone density from many studies and so we’re it’s a little bit of a crapshoot and and my you know as a as a dietitian I would say let’s air on the side of caution we don’t want our children to end up with a reduced Peak bone mass because we’re ignoring calcium and other nutrients that are important for bone density so I would say even though we may not need quite the RDA I don’t think it’s a bad idea to shoot for the RDA anyway I would really like to know if vegans from birth have a lower bone density to be honest the I don’t know if the children in the Polish study who had a lower bone density the 5 to 10 year olds um if they were vegan from birth but I’m guessing they were uh and same with the children in in the veety studies um I’m guessing they were probably vegan from birth because it was you know Toddlers and then a study on 6 to 18 year olds and and so I would assume quite a few of those children were raised vegan and so did they control for their VMI um now that’s a good question I think so in the Polish yes in the Polish study they did and that was the concern they had controlled for BMI they controlled for for a number of things and still the vegan children had lower bone density and they definitely had lower calcium intake as well and in the VY studies the vegan children H they all had calcium intakes below the RDA in that country but the vegans had the lowest calcium and vitamin D intakes you know to me it’s it’s not a big deal like if you think about um the way that National governments have handled nutrition shortfalls throughout you know many decades we’ve added iodine to Salt we’ve added vitamin d and vitamin A to milk we’ve added iron and and B vitamins to flour and folate to FL or folic acid to flour and we’ve added to try to make up for the shortfalls well with vegans a lot of those nutrients aren’t as big of an issue folate we get easily on a plant-based diet a lot of the B vitamins are fairly easily provided and so forth but we need to be concerned about some other nutrients and so you know there are different ways we can approach it just get really familiar with the foods that are rich in those nutrients and our national nut nutrition guides are are so especially in the in the in the States now Canada has changed significantly but in the States you know it’s still Dairy that’s that’s the primary source of calcium or considered the primary source of calcium for the population so most of the nutrition education materials teach people you know consume two or three servings of dairy a day instead of being you know designed for plant-based eaters and and and saying eat so many serving of greens and so many servings of almonds and Tahini and chia seeds and so we need to just get familiar with those sources um in plant-based diet so that we can make sure that we have those bases covered we’ve talked a lot about kind of the shortcomings as you put it are there any other shortcomings there are some things that are still a little bit controversial like the longchain omega-3 fatty acids and iodine can really be an issue in countries where the soil is has is very poor in iodine some you know vegan vegans do sort of the SOS and aren’t using salt and may not be big on seaweed in Japan they use a lot of seaweed so iodine’s not much of an issue but in North America we don’t tend to do that and so you have to figure out okay where’s the iodine coming from because iodine shortfalls can cause IQ shortfalls in children so if you’re you know a a you know even a mild deficiency of iodine can rob a child of 10 to 15 IQ points iodine deficiency is the biggest cause of cognitive impairment uh for children worldwide uh so we need to be aware of that where do people get their iodine in omnivorous diets well milk fish you know there there are these sources that we’re cutting out on a vegan diet so we need to make sure we’re including a reliable source which which easily could be seaweed even um you know a 16th of a of a teaspoon of of kelp powder provides enough for an adult for the day the children’s needs aren’t much less than adult needs it’s a you know an adult needs 150 micrograms a day a children need somewhere between 90 and 120 infants need even more it’s 110 to 130 so it seems like a lot for a tiny little body but iodine is really important to brain function and that’s why so we need to be aware of that uh longchain fatty acids it may be if you’re born and raised vegan that that your ability to convert alphal linolenic acid to EPA and DHA is is fair Fairly efficient and it may remain efficient for your life but we don’t have a lot of studies looking at that and so the thinking at this point is that it may not be a bad idea to provide you know the original source of of EPA and DHA is is little plants in the ocean and and so we can grow those plants that are EPA DHA rich microalgae and and consume them rather than consuming the fish sort of skip the fish and just go right to the source so that’s that’s an option too so there are things generally um you know you’re looking at any downsides for a lot of people the biggest downside is social you know I think one of the most important things for a human being is to belong and to belong within their tribe and to feel accepted and loved and and respected and sometimes when you’re doing something very different from the tribe it can be threatening to the tribe and they can feel uh judged or or um feel like you’re letting them down somehow because you can’t share the same food anymore and food is one of our most important things that connect us socially and so I think for a lot of people that that can be the biggest challenge and fortunately it’s starting to change we’re seeing more and more vegan options in restaurants and more and more vegan food choices in the supermarkets and so forth but it’s still an issue for a lot of families um so that that part can be challenging too and I you know the way that I tend to approach it myself is uh with a lot of love and compassion because I did eat meat at one time as well it can be hard for your loved ones and so you know whenever I’m eating with my my family that’s not vegan I I we just try to accommodate everyone and um you know we’re eating at my house of course it’s going to be vegan but if I’m eating at their house they always make sure that there’s something vegan for me or I bring something to share and we still enjoy meals together and I know not everyone’s comfortable doing that they’re not comfortable if there’s meet on a table um I’ve tended to be a little more bit more flexible that way just because I love my family and I value the connection with them and I feel like my ability to impact them is greater when I stay connected to them and I model healthy Behavior I I feel like well maybe my family that’s not doing this when they have some health crisis they might think well look at Brenda she’s been doing this for so many years she still can do everything physically and is doesn’t take any medicine and I’m on five medic maybe she’s doing something that I could learn from and and so I feel like it’s so important to keep those those channels of communication open and our our connection strong um I feel like I have a better chance of having an impact that way I think it might be helpful for people to understand that iodine for example the reason why it’s in milk is because isn’t it like a part of the the processing of milk like the cleaning iodine is used to clean the the cow’s teeth it’s a disinfectant essentially and that’s why it’s in milk there’s not something miraculous about milk that it’s high in iodine it’s it’s used in the processing exactly yeah so if we’re having to compensate it’s not because of some inferior aspect of no it is abs absolutely not and and when there are shortfalls in an omnivorous diet you know we just figure out how to get around we’ve done that for for decades and we can do the same with a vegan diet there’s so many advantages eating vegan in terms of decreased risk of of overweight and obesity and decreased risk of chronic disease and with longevity and health and all of those things so many advantages and not just that advantages for the animals for the environment it just makes so much sense as a global population that we move in that direction so much so that most of the major authorities now whether it’s the eat Lancet commission or the FAO wh are suggesting a shift a global shift towards a plant-based diet that is a hugely important for us to recognize yeah and then the same goes for B12 I mean the only reason why we get it in the things that we consume is through cross-contamination right it’s nothing inherent in the meat or eggs or dairy maybe as much I don’t know yeah I mean it’s in you know animal muscle tissue it’s in the bloodstream of animals and so forth um but but what a lot of people don’t realize is that way back when in Paleolithic times Etc it people would get it when they you know would drink dirty water or eat dirty plants B12 is produced by by microorganisms a tiny little bacteria that you know that that uh produce B12 and it can be on few fermented Tempe in a really dirty container it will have a some B12 we’ve sanitized Our Food Supplies so much that we’ve removed those kinds of sources to avoid consuming pathogenic bacteria and so you know we need to add it and in fact a lot of animals some many of the B12 supplements that are in the food supply are fed to to animals because they’re short too and so it’s not anything miraculous about Animal product but but we do need to be aware that plant foods are not really reliable sources and so we we need to take care of it because if we don’t get enough B12 if if we’re you know pregnant woman and our baby’s born you know with a B12 deficiency they can develop irreversible brain damage within a matter of months months and so it’s just something we need to be aware of and we need to make sure we have it in the form of a supplement or fortified food or whatever these aren’t really shortcomings due to this vegan diet it’s just our unnatural lifestyle and even with the calcium it could be just mostly that the or the bone density thing because we’re living in such an unnatural environment absolutely now uh did they control for sunshine or D and that I’m not sure I’d have to go back to the study and look at that yeah um but uh but but they do look at vitamin D in many of the studies where you know there there’s a little bit lower bone density but you know in Epic Oxford there were several potential reasons for lower bone density among the vegans and I think probably one of the biggest was just that we’re leaner we’re we’re lighter and and that can make a big difference and it’s and maybe not even necessarily a problem yeah and and it was interesting because I believe it was only people with a BMI under 22 or something that had the lower bone density if you had a little bit higher BMI there was no difference and then of course there you know vitamin B12 vitamin D there were there were all sorts of nutrients that could have possibly contributed as well how protective could it be to raise a child on a whole food plant-based diet like in what ways is it protective yes so it it is protective in a number of ways because basically when you’re raising a child on a vegan diet the diet is going to be richer in all of the components that reduce inflammation that reduce oxidative stress that reduce um you know overeating really um and and that that that promote a healthy gut microbiome which is important to every aspect of Health to brain health to gut health to every aspect of Health it reduces the the storage of fat where fat shouldn’t be stored it it reduces glycotoxins in a child a love for fruits and vegetables and whole grains and beans and all of these healthy foods which protects them in the long term against the diseases that kill most of us you know heart disease cancer diabetes intestinal diseases all of these things will be reduced over their lifespan which is quite a gift as far as I’m concerned um and and when you think about in in North America the rates of of overweight and obesity uh having that significantly reduced is is another very very important uh attribute of a plant-based diet the things that you’re mentioning aren’t these essentially the leading causes of issues and death and premature death oh absolutely 70% of people die of of chronic diseases that are lifestyle induced at least I mean that might be a you know an underestimate and probably is an underestimate in North America um but at least 70% and so when you think about that it’s a no brainer I mean eating uh plant-based is um is just makes so much sense and it makes so much sense not just for ourselves but beyond ourselves because of the eological and the ethical consequences of of you know eating animal Foods versus eating eating plant Foods the carbon footprint of plant Foods is a fraction of what it is for animal uh products the you know the ethical ramifications when you think about the 80 billion land animals every year that doesn’t include anything from the ocean that were slaughtering and 90% of them uh are raised in Kos it’s just an absolute night and it’s a nightmare that is to me completely totally unjustifiable there is no reason for it we we are hurting ourselves we’re hurting the planet and we’re hurting the animals and it’s unnecessary we’re at a point now where if you really really want to eat meat or you love the taste of meat so much can grow it in a lab we can you know we can uh you know we’ve got as human beings it it to me seems so irres responsible to be raising these billions of animals that in that fashion when we’ve got to have the intelligence to figure out a way to provide ourselves with food um that that won’t destroy the planet in the process and won’t be so ridiculously cruel to all of these innocent creatures that don’t deserve that kind of treatment I I just people say they love animals and they you know they treat their dogs and cats with so much regard and and then you know you turn around and eat a pig that that that is um more intelligent than the average dog I don’t know if you remember that study in Berkeley but it was absolutely mind-blowing because they were training pigs to play a game where if they match two things on the computer screen and use their snout to to pull a lever when they got the match correct they would get a treat and the the researcher says there was no pig that ever made a mistake wow and they said they tried to teach chimpanzees the same game and and they would often say to the chimpanzees if you were a pig you would have this by now you know pigs are really really intelligent creatures and what we do to them is just to me beond belief we you know you’ll have 100,000 pigs in one building tail to snout where they have no room to you know to lay down or to they have way more sensitive smellers than humans and we have to put a gas mask on to go in and we expect them to you know to breathe the stench and the it’s just and and these animals that would live what 12 to 15 years about the same as a dog live 6 months before they’re slaughtered for food it’s just disgusting and we somehow justify it because their food um well they’re super intelligent creatures and I even intelligence maybe shouldn’t be a way of you know judging the worth of an animal that you know or why an animal one animal should be abused and another not they’re living creatures who deserve to be treated with some respect and so I I just feel so strongly about that sort of ethical piece that we’ve got to start taking responsibility uh for the way that that um we are raising uh food you know however we’re growing or raising food and uh it just is so unnecessary yeah and they’re in this they’re in these concentrated animal feeding operations because it’s so unsustainable and what’s even more mind-blowing is if you look at like the fao’s land usage chart and food intake Global food intake they’re using up like 77% of the land but they’re only producing about 20% of Global Food intake you know ex the rest is plant but a lot of that’s processed and only about 17% is whole food it sounds like the benefits greatly outweigh any kind of potential fear anybody should have about raising their children plant-based if somebody’s controlling for these simple things like iodine and b12 and vitamin D and and then Co cognizant of calcium intake raising their children do you feel like it could be the most protective diet of all oh absolutely without a doubt a plant exclusive diet is without a doubt the most protective diet of all we have lots of evidence showing that and so I think it’s just a wonderful gift to children just take care of the few little things that are an issue and and then uh make sure that you’re providing high quality food sufficient food enough calories don’t get overly restricted where you’re trying to do two meals a day or even three children need snacks provide them sufficient food and sufficient variety you know um uh don’t be afraid of something like tofu or Tempe or the provide them variety and um and it’ll you know take care of itself I I don’t think a multivitamin mineral supplement is a bad idea little bit of extra um you know zinc selenium whatever can help to top children off especially if they’re fussy eaters uh and then you can sneak in the you know the iodine’s there a little extra vitamin D is there there and and the b112 can be there as well so it’s it’s it’s an option um but but generally um there’s no question this is the most protective way of eating of all yeah so when you say that the obvious conclusion that somebody’s going to come to may be something that would be really hard for them to say and that is by not raising your child on a F plant-based diet you’re you’re hurting them I would be a little bit hesitant to say say that although in in in reality you probably are because you’re hurting the planet you’re hurting the animals we’re all connected and so you’re hurting your children your grandchildren and and and so forth in the long run um if if we’re just looking at health and not looking at all of the other consequences of our food choices um we do see populations in the world that have extraordinarily good health who do consume some animal maybe it’s a little bit of fish or a little bit of you know whatever it is that’s part of their culture um and and it can work really well for them and the children can be very very very healthy uh so I I you know I hesitate to say well for health you have to be absolutely vegan because we know that that’s not necessarily true there are populations around the world that do really quite well including small amounts of animal products but but generally if you look from the bigger picture and you’re thinking of the ethical discussions and the and the ecological uh impact of what we eat then it’s just a no-brainer um this world needs to move in a plantbased direction because if we don’t uh we may not have a planet uh for future generations and we’re at uh I think we’re we’re really close to being at a point where there’s no turning back um we have very fragile life support systems and we are undermining them by the way that we are producing food for a very large and growing population and we as a human species have a responsibility to do what we can do um to stop the destruction we need to get it we we really need to get it and we need to get it quick and I think that the world will become plant-based um at some point because we have to there will be no option let’s just move in that direction sooner than later do you think we’ll see a vegan world I sure think so because I like I say I don’t see an option I really don’t now in those places where like in the Blue Zone where they’re eating a very moderate amount of fish if it’s not practical for them to be vegan I mean you can’t expect them to be vegan no exactly but but what I think the audience though the the viewers the are overwhelmingly predominantly uh in places where they have access to Alternatives if they have these Alternatives you know like that are exclusive variety of plants and maybe you know like this B12 supplement for our lifestyle and the they could do just as well as or or even better than these populations talk on the blue zones a little bit because a lot of people get confused about that and they say oh well they eat animals and okanawa eats pork and they’re eating fish over here whatever so for people that aren’t really familiar with the blue zones these are you know five populations in the world that that have more sarian than anywhere else in the world they tend to live very long healthy lives when they when they’re in their 80s and 90s they’re still pretty productive they’re walking in the mountains they’re doing you know working in their Gardens and it’s um you know it’s really very interesting the five blue zones are okanawa Japan Sardinia lalinda California uh the ncoa peninsula of Costa Rica Iaria Greece and so you’ve got these these populations that do very very well now the question about could vegetarians or vegans plant exclusive eaters do even better I have no doubt they could do even better and the blue zones it’s not just about diet they all eat plant predominant diets they all eat legumes as dietary Staples but it’s not just about diet it’s about you know having strong families and being very socially connected and not smoking a lot and always being you know moderately physically active in their daily activities they walk a lot they’re you know they’re they’re gardening they’re always out being active and so there are many factors that that combine to give people a greater longevity but I believe for for people who are eating exclusively plant-based who are doing all of those things as well that we could do even better uh I have no doubt we could do even better especially if we’re eating a very nutrient dense carefully chosen diet we could see people living you know to 100 and Beyond um in reasonable health I really do believe that and it’s interesting I you know in in when you go to Linda the these are is sort of the mo most vegetarian of the blue zones lalinda California is a is a community rich with and that particular Blue zone is 7th Day Adventists um not all of whom are vegans some of whom are lactoval vegetarian uh and and even some you know omnivores there but there are people that tend to be you know very much more towards the vegetarian Spectrum than maybe some of the other Blu zones um but but when you’re in L Melinda and and and you you take a look around what is so inspiring to me is the way that the 80 and 90 and plus year olds move they are walking brisly they are doing a lot I remember uh one of the last times I was in L Melinda I saw one of one of the researchers there and waved to him and he came over and I think he was 92 or 93 years old he walked over briskly as can be and started talking to me and said uh so what do you think of all this it was at the time where some of the new sodium research was coming out and you know we start talking about the research and I asked him what he was up to and he was still speaking all over the world and and you know in his in his early 90s and I just thought this is so so inspiring I just uh and his brain was just on fire you know was working um you know just just on had his finger on the pulse of all the new research and it was it was really really neat to see and so it’s I just believe it’s absolutely possible yeah yeah now some people say oh I know somebody who did this that or the other ate meat drank smoke whatever and they live to be a hundred or whatever of course yeah there are always those stories but what you have to do is look at the research and when you look at at the research those people have a far greater chance of dying early than people that are living a healthy lifestyle it’s not a question there will always be Exceptions there will be vegans who get cancer when they’re 35 or 40 uh and you go like what the heck I was doing everything right there are many factors that contribute to cancer and they could have been exposed to whatever they were exposed to and people who are you know smokers and Drinkers and meat eaters till they’re 100 they had a very good Constitution and and a lot of luck and a lot of lives those things always happen but you can’t base your decisions on the exception it’s better to base your decisions on the rule and and what we see in terms of large you know large numbers of people you know I get a lot of comments on my videos and you know people pop up and oh well there’s these phytotoxin you know you mentioned some already it oxalates Fates lectins tannins there’s all these these soapin whatever there so many things but I’ve heard you know some of these things are actually protective even some people call them anti-nutrients in foods and these are essentially things in foods that protect plants they protect you know plants from a premature release of the stored forms of nutrients in the plants they protect plants from predators they’re they’re there for a lot of good reasons and they can you know they can compromise the absorption of some nutrients but they often are highly protective in small doses they protect plants they also protect people and and even things like Fates can be quite protective they can be protective against cancer and so forth so well we don’t want to necessarily overdo them uh it’s not a bad idea to get some in the diet some of the the compounds like Fates and and some of the other compounds many of the ways that we deal with Foods uh decrease those things of so if you sprout if you cook if you ferment if you you know if you yeast a uh or leavon a bread um you reduce those anti-nutrients sprouting tremendously reduces them so there are lots of ways that we can moderate our intakes of these so-called antinutrients I’m not sure it’s a very good label for them because in some ways they can actually be very protective this lends itself well to you know talking about variety so the kind of variety that we should get I’ve heard recently somebody suggest you know getting 30 different types of plant Foods in a week you know I don’t know where they heard that from maybe goldhammer or somebody yeah yeah let’s talk about food real quick like beans greens grains fruits veggies mushrooms nut seeds herbs spices that’s what I usually give people a rundown yes perfect you got G bombs or whatever like what is your deal how do you say it I think I say it a lot like you okay um yeah because I you know I often think in terms of food groups and so you know you want your diet to be based on leafy greens non-starchy vegetables beans lentils you know sort of that legum Kingdom nuts and seeds and then some starches as well to give you satiety to give you energy and that could be in the form of starchy vegetables or or intact I prefer intact grains or lightly processed grain so it could be cut grains or rolled grains or something like that but generally and then the herbs and spices I love you said that because they add not only flavor to our foods but they add a lot of antioxidants and phytochemicals and per you know per unit per gram they’re more concentrated in some of those compounds than anything else so those are the real keys to a healthy plant-based diet we want to have variety we want to have color we and and we want to have a reasonable mix of all of those foods with a focus on the non-starchy vegetables I think um and the green leafy vegetables and I like to usually also say a variety within each category yes within each category absolutely yeah yeah and is that hard to do so give us an idea of what you like to eat on a g okay oh that’s kind of a fun question so I’m I’m a little bit of a creature of habit but I try to vary things up so my my breakfast is almost always the same so so my breakfast is I call it a breakfast bowl and I start with sprouted grains like maybe sprouted camut Sometimes some cooked grains like cooked oat Groats for example and I often if I cook grains I’ll cook a little bit of lentils in with the grains to balance that grain and legume and so so it’ll that’ll be you know sort of the base of the bowl and then I add in probably two cups of cut up fruits or or and berries so I’ll have my favorite season is summer where there’s a lot of berries available peaches apricots all of that uh in the winter time it’ll more be apples and bananas and whatever fruit mangoes whatever fruit I can get a hold of and then I like something creamy in my in my breakfast so it’ll be it could be a non-dairy yogurt but generally it’s um it’s a chia pudding I’ll make a chia pudding I’ll add a little bit of chia always have a chia pudding in the fridge so I’ll add a little bit of that and then I have a dehydrated granola homemade granola I’ll put a little bit of that for some crunch a little bit of cinnamon Ginger whatever seasonings on top uh and then uh some sort of non-dairy milk and that’s my basic breakfast bowl I love if I have the opportunity if I have time to have a green juice before the the the cereal or even um a little bit bit of steamed greens with a touch of balsamic vinegar something like that to get the greens in and then lunch is always a giant salad so that’s almost always I mean very rarely that I don’t have that and it’s a really big salad with leafy and Wild Greens Sprouts usually broccoli Sprouts sunflower sprouts whatever Sprouts I’m growing and if I if I’m not growing then than whatever you know I can purchase from my organic delivery service and uh and then I try to get to cover the rainbow so you know I’ll have some green vegetables in with the the leafy green some some red some orange some yellow some purple blue I try to get all of those colors mixed in and then I always have a starch so that might be a little bit of camut berries or or some sort of a a butternut squash cubes or something like that and I always have protein so it might be some sort of beans or chickpeas or hummus or or even lentils or or cubes of tofu or something like that and then I always put seeds on top so it could be pumpkin seeds or whatever seeds and then I top it with a dressing and my dressing is usually tahini hemp seed so tahini hemp seed lemon juice uh maybe some vinegars and then some fresh ginger and garlic and whatever I’ll I’ll play around with that and uh and that’s my typical lunch and I love it and I always have a fresh orange or fresh fruit uh for dessert um and then my uh dinner is it varies of course sometimes it’ll be you know a a variety of salads sometimes it’ll be um you know a stew or some sort of grain and veggies one of my my favorites is my son taught me how to do these lentil pancakes it’s just lentils and water and you blend it in the blender and it makes these beautiful pancakes and then I stuff it with often asparagus and wild mushrooms and a cashew cream sauce with uh you know whatever veggies are on hand and and then you know do these kind of little um little crepe things and and I love doing um uh bowls I love these some people call them Buddha Bowls Or Glory bowls or whatever where you have a a green or starch uh starchy vegetable on the bottom and then all kinds of steamed vegetables and then beans or tofu and then some sort of wonderful uh peanut sauce or something like that and uh and so those are my favorite things and then dessert is almost always fruit based so it might be a fruit you know frozen banana ice cream or something you know or just apples with some nut butter to dip and some cinnamon on top and yeah those are my favorite things and for treats if if I want a real treat I I do make uh some kind of sinful treats that are uh I use dates and and a nut butter to make caramel and then I make these little turtle kind of things with with uh peans and the caramel and then I brush a very dark chocolate on top and freeze them and so those will be for special you know special treats or I make cookies that I don’t use any sugar I just use um a little bit of dried fruit and sometimes grated carrots and all kinds of uh of uh spices and no flour I don’t use flour in them just some maybe some rolled oats or something like that and nut butter for the for the fat and and they’re wonderful so I do have treats on occasion and and enjoy them but that’s basically my diet grind up pumpkin seed and it’s super high in iron too oh yeah pumpkin seeds are awesome and they’re higher high in zinc as well and my son he’s an incredible cook but he makes scrambled eggs out of pumpkin seeds wow and I said but how and he said well he said it is a bit of a pain cuz you have to soak them and remove the Skins but he said they’re amazing amazing and so he’s always had some real skills with uh with you know coming up with interesting fun things or you get some from people on the Internet or whatever but he’ll be creating uh new things he makes all kinds of edgie roast and you name it it’s always fun to hear what he’s doing it’s always good to throw like brazilnut in there you know right for selenium or whatever because you me selenium earlier and and I do I I I actually have a a seed mix that I forgot to mention goes on my breakfast bowl uh which has uh hemp seeds flax ground flax seeds chia seeds and uh chopped up Brazil nuts so I cover all the bases there yeah yeah and then I guess you don’t want to overdo the Brazil of course right no no they’re very high in selenium and but then also like sesame seeds are great for calcium right yes yeah they have a fair bit of calcium but chia seeds are even higher wow yeah chia seeds are a really good calcium Source speaking of seeds flax seeds of course are high in the alphal lenic acid right they’re also high in cyanide right yes so they do contain what we call cyanogenic glycosides and and so the cyanogenic glycos Ides are broken down by cooking mhm so if you’re eating raw flax you probably want you know you don’t want to be eating like a cup a day a couple of tablespoons two three tablespoons is probably not an issue um but if you’re getting much more than that the cytic glycosides could could be a bit of an issue um so we just need to need to be aware of that and they are goitrogens as well so oh yeah so what I like to do what I what since I learned that I have grows in the in the morning also and the last two minutes of them simmering I’ll throw in those the flx seeds that’s a great idea yeah and then then I kind of increase the heat a little bit right there and let them yeah and then but it makes the grow it makes them like super like thick and like almost like a buy but I just started doing that do you have like a favorite quote or any kind of quotes you like this year you know one of my very favorite quotes is the quote that Dr sabotino gave today the quote from Albert Einstein the one about widening our Circles of compassion to include the beauty of all nature that we need to as human beings widen our Circles of compassion to include all creatures all living creatures and all the the beauty of Nature and then I love I love Albert schwitzer and all of uh uh his quotes and and how he talked about you know true ethics and true you know what what it it is to be a truly ethical human being you know where it you wouldn’t uh harm anything um and and until we get to that point you know we’re not really understanding ethics and I wish I had those quotes in front of me but um I I love um both of they have so many uh wonderful quotes um and um of course I love that quote by Chief Seattle as well that uh all things are connected like the blood which unites one family you know whatever it’s the about the web of life and whatever you do to the web we do to ourselves I love that quote and and there’s controversy about where it really comes from whether it really is Chief Seattle or someone else or but um I love I love the concept of that that we need to recognize how intimately connected all living things are and what we do to one part of the web of life we do to ourselves you know one of the things that I think is is so valuable for people to to recognize is that um you know there’s no there’s really no doctor dietician that can make a lifestyle change for you um it and and I I think this is important because I think it’s empowering it’s empowering to know that you’re you’re really the captain of your ship you’re the one that decides what goes into your mouth you’re the one that decides how you’re going to move your body uh it’s under your control and what I I really love about that is that the human body wants to be healthy there’s this strong drive for our bodies to be healthy and and what you put in your mouth is is really the raw materials with which you will build your brain which with you will rebuild build every part of your body and when you suddenly start to dramatically shift what you’re putting in your mouth you change everything and one of the things that has really surprised me in my research that the work I’ve done with lifestyle medicine is how rapidly this happens it’s extraordinary so when you change within a week you start to see a dramatic shift in how you look how you feel um your blood levels of cholesterol and triglycerides and everything it just all starts to shift and it’s all within your power it’s within your control and so you may have type 2 diabetes you may have heart disease you have the power to change that uh these are largely reversible diseases and not in every case can you reverse type 2 diabetes or heart disease but you can make a a huge dent in the right direction and for many people you can you know you can definitely put yourself into remission which is a really powerful concept I just want to encourage people um that regardless of where you’re at right now um think about where you want to go um because where you want to go is where where you can go and just know that the help is out there the support is out there there are many people that have done this who would love to be your cheerleader and this is a growing community and we don’t I feel like one of the things that I think is so important for those of us who are vegan who are plant-based is to really be as non-judgmental and accepting this isn’t an exclusive Club we welcome people wherever you’re at on your journey and we would love to be able to help you to get where you really want to go really hard for people to navigate this information in the world today there’s so much information coming from all these different places and you got the carnivore the keto the Paleo and you’ve you’ve done a lot of good research on that I’ve seen some of your videos how do you feel about it today the carnivore the keto the Paleo the Atkins all these different iterations as far as the evidence is concerned sure there’s a lot of anecdotal and in shortterm research right from all your research what’s your elevator pitch against that yeah so my elevator pitch against keto paleo all of these sort of um high fat or very high protein diets that are very much animal you know sort of centered diets is is really very simple if the whole world went in that direction we would be in very big trouble in very short order and we can’t just make decisions you know that that are just all about me me me we have to think about the consequences of our choices Beyond ourselves and and you know David cat a very well-respected uh researcher uh uh from you know Yale University did the math on this he said if everybody ate a paleo diet right now we would need about 15 planers to sustain the current population uh imagine if we were all doing keto and paleo and I mean it’s just frightening as it is we’re in a crisis we’re so concerned about climate change and you know our carbon footprint and all of those things we would be in such deep trouble if we did that I know these diets are risky longterm we have tons of tons of of research that has shown that that um these animal- centered diets reduce longevity they increase mortality uh they’re just not good news longterm but they’re even worse news for the planet and for the animals imagine if we all ate paleo we would probably triple or quadruple our meat intake it’s an absolute nightmare to even conceive of and so I I just think it’s so irresponsible to promote a diet that is that dist destructive to the planet and that’s the bottom line for me what is the most compelling evidence that you found you feel like maybe destroys all of that well I I guess I would say you know the studies that have looked at mortality and animal protein intake and and even the the 2018 idlan study that looked at intakes of carbohydrates and and you know if you look at the where you see the degree of increase in risk of death the lower your carbohydrate intake it’s really quite quite startling and then all of the studies you know from Harvard and from Japan that have looked at um um meat intake and risk of of death risk of heart disease risk of cancer and so forth uh we know consistently from these studies that the higher your intake of animal protein the greater your risk of of death and disease you know we had the a study LaVine in 2014 looking at you know the the people consuming more than 20% of calories from protein and and what it showed and of course paleo is about 30% of calories from protein and what it showed is that risk of disease increased when that protein came from animal products but when the protein came from plant products it didn’t increase risk of disease at all and and so we have so many studies that have compared plant and animal protein and risk of death and disease and all of these studies it are really consistent in terms of of risk and so I think it’s you know case closed in my opinion and I feel I feel really badly for the people that are that are hooked into uh that way of eating it’s it’s really a tragedy it’s a tragedy for them for the animals for the planet and I I just really hope it stops being such a popular way to go um no it’s really really sad yeah you know I think people like Dr I think McDougall says you know they love to hear good news about their bad habits yeah exactly and so then they see somebody like Dr sha Baker or Ken Barry or or whoever the next new you know oh saladino whatever they see these people and they oh yeah that’s that’s all I need right there is this this one person if they actually look at the overwhelming evidence even The Institute of medicines the acceptable distribution of macronutrients totally carbohydrate heavy yeah it’s a it’s the amdr the acceptable macronutrient distribution range yeah yeah and they and they say at the same time they’re saying less saturated fat more fiber you know yes oh absolutely if you look at we’re such a small percent of the population but yet we got ornish and nutrition facts pcrm we got all this stuff in our favor even Academy of nutrition and dietetics yeah yeah they’re not looking at the World Health Organization or the FAO or the eat lanet reports or any of these really where where they’ve gathered scientists from you know however 30 or 40 countries around the world to come together to determine what diet is really best for health for example uh there are many of these papers now they all come to the same conclusion all of them we need to be shifting towards a plant-based diet you know in Canada we we have our our our food guide and our dietary guidelines in the states we’ve got the Institute of Medicine with with food guides and dietary guidelines really pointing towards more uh plant I mean in Canada it’s very strongly towards plant-based diets in the states a little less so uh but still moving in that direction slowly uh we have we have the eat Lancet commission that had scientists from all over the world come together to try to come up with recommendations for the diet that would best sustain the human population in terms of health and the environment and all of those things their conclusion was we need to eat more plants and fewer animal products and fewer processed foods it’s it you know the World Health Organization says the same the FAO U the unu uh their their big report again the same you know un sustainable diets same story more plants fewer animals uh and and and it’s just consistent if you look at you know that FAO unu uh report they actually highlighted the countries that are really promoting plant-based diets and they have quotes for you know Brazil and Qatar and the UK and Germany and where they all have you know plant-based in their recommendations and are really more Progressive in that direction and so they were commending all of these countries that were moving forward uh in that way and so we see this over and over again it’s really quite consistent and I don’t think there’s much of a debate within um you know the Progressive Medical scientific world is there anything out there at all saying eat more animals so is there anything out there that’s saying eat more animals I would say the only thing I can think of is in developing countries where people are very undernourished where there is a one dietary staple like rice and they’re encouraging their population to eat more animal products to get nutrient levels up because of a total dir in accessibility exactly the food desert the food desert other than that I really don’t know of any that are credible you know um uh Public Health authorities that would be saying we should be eating more animals I think that uh we we’re past that stage at this point in time fasting I’m really I think everybody believes that intermittent fasting is probably pretty dang benefit beneficial and you mentioned snacking being good you know at least for kids if you’re just doing it in between meals and not after you should be done eating it’s probably not a big deal right yeah and I I don’t snack myself and and I think that there are some people that it makes sense for and some people that it doesn’t so people that are are overweight or obese they don’t need a snack people that are Elite athletes that are burning 5,000 calories a day they need to snack to be able to meet usually to meet those nutrition requirements uh children because they have very small stomachs may not be able to meet their energy needs especially on a whole food plant-based diet with just three meals CU they get full so quickly so a nutritious snack would make good sense for them for myself I find that you know the way that I like to eat is I have my breakfast at you know whatever 8 in the morning my lunch between 12 and 1 or something my dinner around 5: like I try to eat my dinner quite early and I’m done eating by 5:30 or 6 at the latest and then I don’t eat until you know 8 or 9:00 the next morning so I have that kind of 14 to 16 hours quite often are almost daily uh there as a sort of a you know Tim restricted feeding if you will or some people call intermittent fasting but it’s it’s really a time Tim restricted feeding and and so I find myself I feel best doing that and everybody’s a little different so I have friends who have problems with hypoglycemia and they find that if they eat more small meals they do better but I think for most people fewer meals is an easier way to control caloric intake I just think it’s easier that way we tend to overeat less when we’re eating fewer times a day and we don’t eat between meals we don’t need to if you eat a decent meal it should absolutely keep you for 5 or 6 hours you should not need to have you know snacks in between somebody I know who’s vegan she was having some like digestive issues some bloating some you know just cramps whatever I noticed she was eating late and all kinds of different hours and it was mostly because of her job you know like she has this crazy work schedule and all that but I kept saying man I wonder if you fasted if it would help and then stomach problems were like all like so bad that she decided she was going to go to the doctor and the doctor wanted to do this that and the other next thing you know they were wanting to do a colonoscopy or whatever and so they made her fast for the colonoscopy she started feeling better because of the fast like it really helped her and when they did the colonoscopy she was like perfect like there was nothing there and I’m like that was like I knew you didn’t need to be doing that and you know what’s crazy is the doctor prescribed her fiber and I’m like she’s vegan that’s all she eats his Whole Foods you know 90% of the like you’re going to and I’m telling the doctor I’m like what are you doing why are you going to prescribe her fiber when she’s you know what I mean like when she eat 70 gr of fiber a day or whatever I’ve heard somebody say oh I know vegans who’ve been vegan for 10 years start having problems you know could it be that they’re just not disciplined eating times could maybe an intermittent fasting schedule really resolve all that yeah oh absolutely and and just because a person is vegan doesn’t mean their diet is healthy doesn’t mean it’s balanced doesn’t mean it’s you know welld designed for their body we need to really look at how often we’re eating what we’re eating how close to bedtime we’re eating the time you eat matters like if you eat a meal you know and then go to bed an hour later uh it’s not good for your sleep it’s not good for your digestive system so we need to look at those fine details of eating to make sure we get things balanced out and I think it was you know that’s such a good point that people can have problems with digestion and all of that because of when they’re eating and what they’re eating when and it seems for a lot a lot of people if they’re eating late at night it’s not always the healthiest uh choices late at night seems late at night you’re more likely to eat the salty snack foods or the you know the crispy Foods or whatever it is and so I think we just need to be really conscious of that and try if you have those kinds of issues try playing around because in some cases it could be a sensitivity to something so you might be sensitive to what whatever gluten or whatever the case may be uh and and when you you know modify your diet a little bit the symptoms go away all vegan diets are not equal all vegan diets will not support your digestion in the same way so it does take a little bit of personalization of the diet so that it works for you as far as like people failing what do you what do you find to be the most common reasons people fail is it what we just talked about and is there anything else there are two scenarios I see quite often number one is people that you know are really into the animals the environment and they just switch from meat and potatoes to pasta and bagels they don’t pay attention to eating healthfully and they eat a lot of fast vegan food or fast food vegan food you know they might be having you know a vegan dut at breakfast they might be having you know vegan whatever burrito at lunch and and just eating High processed a lot of Highly processed foods or they’re you know predominantly refined carbohydrates uh which were familiar with we’re comfortable with so people can easily switch from meat and potatoes to the pasta and tomato sauce and the and the bagels and and vegan cream cheese or whatever to switch from a meat and potato diet to a highly processed or refined vegan diet it doesn’t do you any favors in terms of disease risk reduction and so forth you know it’s just a mistake you want to switch from meat and potatoes to to vegetables and beans more than you know these refined foods and the second mistake I PE I see people make getting uh overly restrictive you know and i’ I’ve actually seen a number of people where they they become underweight uh they they absolutely um eat almost no fat at all they won’t eat nuts and seeds they won’t eat you know there’s just so many things they won’t eat because they might not be healthy and and they don’t believe in any sort of supplements so they get B12 deficient or they even in some cases get get low in protein I know a lot of people think you can’t be protein deficient on a vegan diet trust me you can you may not have you know a A quashi or cor but you can not you know have enough protein to retain your muscle mass well or to even build your skin tissue well and so your skin becomes thin your hair starts to fall out I’ve seen this often and and so we need to be I think sort of balanced in our approach and not overly restrictive to include a variety to include sufficient calories and not not to be afraid of any macronutrient whether it’s carbohydrate fat or protein from Whole plant Foods whole plant foods are good bets regardless of the macronutrient profile if they’re Whole Foods failed vegans are some of the biggest anti-vegans out there which is sad for me because I I really believe that pretty much anyone can do well on a vegan diet if they get the the right kind of support and so I think it’s kind of sad that they they leave so disgruntled without seeing a plant-based doctor dietician and getting the kind of support they would need to figure out uh what’s not working for them because it can usually be corrected and uh almost always um and and so I just think it’s it’s really a shame how can people maybe find you and how can they get that support yeah so I tend to not do a lot of oneon-one although I’m I I’m always happy to answer answer a question or two I tend not to do long consults just because I have so many projects I’m working on you know research projects and and courses I’m working on a course with aclm or the American College of Lifestyle medicine one with the food Revolution Network I’m always I always have a book project on the go so I I tend to have to limit my time with oneon-one although I’m always happy to answer a question but there are just hordes of plant-based dietitians out there that have all of the skills and are that’s what they do um there are lots of coaches there there is a lot of support out there and there are tons of fabulous resources on the internet so there’s nutritionfacts.org there’s vegan health.org nutritionfacts.org is fun and upbeat and there’s a video on everything you can imagine vegan health.org is the Deep dive so you want to know about almost anything uh it is done uh accurately thoroughly and is very balanced I I you know love vegan health.org there are a lot of others uh that that provide wonderful information many dietitians many uh Physicians who are doing a great job and so there are a lot of resources on the internet there are many books of course you know it’s one of the ways that I’ve tried to provide resources so the last book that I released was a book called nourish that I wrote with a pediatrician from San Francisco by the name of Dr RMA Shaw and we this book nourish is actually a book to help families you know pregnant women uh families with infants and children who want to do plant-based well and so we cover everything all the nutrients the stages of the life cycle the whole works and we even dig deeply into sort of all of the eating concerns with children and the picky eaters and you know the family table and all of the things that that you need to know to have really to raise healthy eaters and uh and so that was the the last book and before that I did two books on Diabetes kick diabetes Essentials and kick diabetes cookbook with my writing partner vanto Molina and actually we just finished a book on plant protein which should be out in the next few months so I keep writing this plant protein is the 13th book these resources becoming vegan is a lot of people say it’s their their vegan Bible that they you know you can just kind of it’s it’s something that you would flip to you want to know about iron or iodine or whatever you just you know search that and and you’ll find a whole section that will help you to uh to navigate any of the concerns and it goes through the entire life cycle and it you know it just covers everything underweight overweight eating disorders a whole nine yards and so those are the kinds of books I’ve tried to provide as reference books I I just had a a professor from Taiwan uh translate The Becoming vegan and is now their nutrition text for their course on plant-based nutrition fantastic and this is your book that you left oh my goodness thank you so much thanks Wanda you know the last book was uh on plant protein and vanto my writing partner and I who’ve been writing together for what 25 years or more um the next book we want to write is for seniors uh a plant-based book for seniors and vanto is now 80 years old so she’s still working you know full-time uh which is pretty amazing and and actually I have to say something else about vanto because in 2016 she actually won the highest award offered by dietitians of Canada called the Riley Memorial lecture award and uh it it’s just really the biggest honor that any dietitian in our country can receive we’re being recognized in that way which is really very very wonderful it’s encouraging for young dietitians Who Who Are You Know plant-based and enthusiastic and go through uh you know school being a little discouraged that there’s still so much you know animal food presence in the programs and there’s hope definitely ‘s hope and and they’re changing things they’re educating their professors so it’s really important where can somebody go to find like a Showcase of your books I have a website Brenda Davis rd.com we have I have other websites for the various books like becoming vegan website and and kick diabetes website but uh but Brenda Davis rd.com I am really bad at keeping up with that website I wish I had someone helping me because I I I don’t navigate it very well uh so it’s not always up to date but certainly the books are there I want to say thanks to the NHA this is the National Health Association conference they put on this conference once a year and I think this year they had about 300 or so somewhere in that neighborhood participants and it was amazing so if you’re looking for a conference to go to next year think about the NH conference it’s reasonable and it’s a lot of fun how science.org they have a wonderful publication so that’s yeah something to check out you say you only take one or two questions from people generally yeah but here I am honored I just can’t believe how much time you gave me and that was so sweet I appreciate it so much oh well thank you for asking me and it was really a lot of fun and I’m excited about what you’re doing thank you you’re educating the world